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I agree it is good looking system. My concern is that to pay £24 this 12 month cycle for 6 features, then pay £24 next cycle because there is, say, two new features I realy want/need means a total of £48. Whereas, you seem to infer that if a wait a cycle then I would only pay £24 for all 8 features.

In other words; If I buy premium now and get 6 features for £24, then want the new features introduced 13 months after wards I pay again. Whereas, if my friend decides to buy it in 13 months time they get all the features I have, in reality, payed twice for.

Three cycles down the line, someone coming into Agenda for the first time would potentialy be getting a stack load of features that ealry adopters have had to pay many times for.

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Ah, that is true if thinking about wages… whether you start early in the day, and your friend starts later, but you are both paid the same. That is not relevant here. You’ve had the use of a great and beautiful program that could potentially change the organization of your life for the better, whilst your friend has languished without the tools to sort through all those notes he keeps losing track of.

And, you’ll be the hero when you offer to show him all those tricks and tips to flatten and shorten his learning curve.

It’s a win-win in my book.

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87

Exactly! Yes, your friend gets the features in one go, but you have already been using the app for over a year while he had to suffer…

It’s the same argument as buying a new computer, if I don’t buy a mac now and continue using my crappy windows PC I can be pretty sure that for the same money I get a much speedier Mac one year from now, but is it worth suffering for another 12 months?

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88

shudders Absolutely not!! And, of course, the same idea will rear its head again next year… & the next year… and the next…

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89

That is not the point, and I find it disappointing that you avoid this fact.

A user buying now gets 6 features for £24. If they want, say 4 new features after 13 months they have to pay again. A user buying in 13 months pays for all the 10 features once. This is not a point of anyone missing out, they may not have discovered the application previously.

Basically, the rational behind the model is subscription based, unless a different pricing structure is given to existing users when new features come out.

If you keep the pricing the same cycle after cycle (as in subscription models) then there is little issue. If however you intend to increase the price as more features get added then existing customers will be penalised.

Please can you clarify what your pricing intentions are for the future?

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I still think you don’t understand the model, perhaps best to read this post to get a better feel of where we’re coming from: A ‘Cash Cow’ is on the Agenda. Update: There is a follow up post about… | by Drew McCormack | Medium

Perhaps your rationale would be valid if all features would be equal, a bit like credits per month of use, but that’s not the case either, you can’t for example compare the work needed to give you inline images support with the work to implement archiving of notes. These things are variable and hard to quantify, is 1 big feature worth more or less than 5 small ones?

In the end of the day it’s about finding a model that is a fair balance between allowing us a way to sustain and support Agenda so it doesn’t just disappear one day, and you as a user to have a choice and not being forced/blackmailed in a recurring payment model.

Again, the above article explains this in a much better way, hopefully convincing you to support our work.

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91

Respectfully, I have read that lterature, is is the very reason why I am asking this question.

Trust in a product comes both from the quality of the application and the pricing model. Your model, I agree, is a fresh look at how people pay for a product, but I have to be honest it looks flawed with the potential to come and bite you on the ass later. We are all aware how users hate it when software they have grown to love disappears because the pricing model failed.

I agree that not all features are equal. But, going back to your new computer analogy. Agenda is being sold as a product - pay the price, get the existing features forever. However, over time you intend to improve that product.

Now, under your model, as that product improves your asking current users to pay for it over and over again as it improves (albeit with a 12 month free update period). Whereas a future purchaser gets the improved model for the original price. I’d love to buy an iPhone X at the cost of the original iPhone.

Now, this is what I am trying to clarify. Do you intend to increase the price as it becomes more feature rich? If so, how will existing users not be penalised by that increase - considering they already ‘own’ many of the original features?

If you mean for the price to stay the same (basically a subscription) how will you ensure that the price continues to reflect the value of the product? In other words, can you justify the price in relation to the new features coming out? After all you will reach feature saturation at some point and then, under your model, people will just stop buying.

Do you see my point? When Agenda has all the features people want, or you can provide, your cash flow stops.

Buying a product differs from buying a service. Subscription models for services mean that a reasonable price is paid on a regular cycle and all improvements are covered in that cost. Even when features stop getting added, a revenue stream is continued to ensure product support, and that is when you as developers, realy make the big money.

Compare your model to one of the best pricing models, OnePassword, You can buy the product once, not on a cycle. All minor updates are free, any major ones (new realeses) the current users get a discount. You also have the option to subscribe, to get all updates, including major ones, continuously. Honest subscriptions are good because they ensue your ability to sustain development.

I have trust in your product, but I sincerely believe your pricing model needs to be rethought. It is beautifully simple, but prerhaps too simple.

I will be buying Agenda as it suits my needs. Will I buy it next year again? I’m uncertain, and that is not a position you want consumers to be in if you are looking for regular sales.

Would I purchase it at £24 then pay a yearly subscription for say £12 a year? It’s more likely I would to ensure new features and support.

Only trying to help.

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92

With the stated premise of keeping the app ‘simple’ and NOT subject to bloat, how does this subscription model differ from the subscription model, over time. GRANTED the app is beautiful, in many ways. But user input has suggested some ‘must have’ features, I.e., attachments, changeable fonts, sub-projects, variable color schemes, additional list options, etc., etc. etc. If not simply a function of how difficult a feature is to implement as opposed to how popular a feature request is, how and when in this subscription model cycle does a developer decide what and when to make a feature available. Maybe I’m missing the point, but if I’m satisfied with the app after Attachnents (or whatever) is released next month (:wink:) and I find no need to ‘subscribe’ after my initial 12 month period are you (developers) going to maintain usability for every future Apple iOS update, iOS12, iOS 13, iOS 14, without requiring me to pay anything additional?

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This is exactly where we disagree, this is exactly what we try to achieve. That you, as the user, are always in the position that a) you can continue to use the product in the exact state it is right now (without being forced to pay in order not to not loose any features) and b) you can freely decide whether you want to buy the new premium features you don’t yet have.

In the end of the day it’s not about what somebody else gets for whatever the number of euros is that we are asking, it’s about whether you think that whatever features you don’t yet have are worth the price we are asking. If not you simply stay with what you have, or perhaps you want to wait an extra few months so you get 8 instead of 6 features for your money. This will differ for everybody and that’s the beauty. It’s purely how much you value what we do, and clearly the ball is in our court to convince you we make something you find useful.

As to whether this will prove a successful model and will allow us to sustain Agenda only time will tell. So far we have seen an overwhelmingly positive reaction and it looks very promising. But this in part is the risk of using indie-software from small shops. Though I’m not sure history has shown free software from big names to be any less likely to disappear.

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A fair point to make, again, the ball is clearly in our court. But just as we made an app that you seem to like, I’m very confident that we will add some features that you will want to have. We have just started, have lots of ideas and you haven’t seen anything yet :smiley:

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looking forward…
So when will be a next release or beta release with new features?! :wink:

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After the summer break…

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97

Again, you reiterate your ethos behind the model without answering any fundemental questions.

I apprecaite the model based on how much the user ‘values’ the application, my criticism is that that value has to be proportional to what has already been invested by a user.

You will reach a point where you will only add a few features in a 12 month period, do you believe existing users will be prepared to pay full price, again, for those features even if they do want them?

At the end of the day it is very much what somebody gets for how many euros. Existing users will catch on to that very quickly. I bring this up as someone very much aware of pricing models, and I understand how easy it is to blind ourselves to a pricing structure without considering all the future implications.

It is worth considering, and knowing, as Agenda becomes more feature rich will you put up the price? If so will existing customers have to pay that increased price on the next cycle?

If the price stays the same, will you be able to guarantee existng users will be prepared to invest in the product again and again? If they do not, are you capable to survive on new sales without old sales reinvesting?

I wish you the best of luck, tempered with the experience that we can often get caught out by our own cleverness.

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The answer is simple: I don’t know, time will tell. It’s all a hypothetical discussion but as said, so far we’re very happy with the start. We won’t need all users to renew, which this model also allows for and is why we like it so much. We ultimately have to rely on getting new users as well as a subsection renewing, it will be a mixed bag. Some might do a few cycles, others none, but the nice thing is that if somebody is a happy user not wanting the new premium features, he could still help spread the word and bring a new user on board who does.

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And in answer to the question of if the price will increase as new features are added?

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Well, I’ve bought my 2018 Ford Shelby GT350 wow car. I may not buy another Mustang until 2023, but I sure will enjoy my new car until then. I’m sure the designers will be adding a lot more high tech performance features each year between now and then, some I will crave in 2023 and others I will just say “Meh”. But when I grab my new wow car in 2023, it’ll be worth it. I chose to buy, not lease. Big difference. I own the car. I’m not just renting.

Before all these silly, greedy “subscription models” (Adobe Design Studio is a prime example), you used to buy software and pull it out of the box and own it. Periodically, you would download bug fixes, and sometimes feature adds, but really, you just kept the product and used it.

Eventually there would be a major upgrade from the developers, usually a name tweak so you knew it really was different in major ways, and your files from your current version would need to be converted to the new format if you decided to buy it. If you buy the new version, you would receive regular bug fixes and minor feature adds until the cycle repeats.

I just lost the use of 25 years of my InDesign files which had been converted to the new format because I just got tired of paying $600 every year for the “privilege” of using their software… not owning it, just borrowing it. $2400 over the last 4 years was too steep a price and still I don’t own the old version, nor use the files. It’s a rip off! I’ll never do it again.

Agenda has a great model. We’ll see how it pans out. But to judge the model before the app gets to collect any dust isn’t wise either.

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101

Plenty of subscription models allow you to keep the software if you stop paying the subscription. I agree, avoid any that only allow use of it if you keep paying. That is why a purchase price (to keep your shiny new software) and then a lower subscriptions to help development is best. You stop paying the subscription you get the product to the point you want.

I am less judging the model, more so exploring it for potential problems. And in my eyes there are some. But, if everyone is happy to ignore those potential problems because you know, the product is so great, then so be it. When you have payed this cycle for 6 features, then maybe again as another six are added, lets see if you will be willing to pay again when only two are added.

I know, I know. You can decide not to have those two features.

I mean who would pay £24 for, say, 6 new features every year but then would not be prepared to pay £24 when only two are added?

It’s not like loyalty and commitment to a start-up should be reciprocated.

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I think it’s worth remembering that with most free-to-try apps if you stop paying the subscription you go back to a very limited service indeed, eg you can only use it with 5 notes within one project. Agenda’s business model is unfamiliar and may or may not work well in the longer term, but at the moment it seems to me to offer better value than many other subscription-based apps

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103

I agree. I will be buying Agenda for the reason that its functionality is improved by buying the full version. It IS a good application and looks likely to improve further. The long term needs to be considered more however.

Consider these questions? Is premium Agenda worth, say, £24 at the moment? (I would answer yes).

As further development continues will it be worth £48 - the price payed in total by you in two years? (Arguably yes, but it might not be).

In three years when feature saturation closes in will it be worth the £72 you have had to pay to get the new features? (We’re getting onto dubious ground now)

Now, assuming the developers do not change the price, a later adopter will be getting an enhanced application for £24 that early adopters have had to pay £72 for.

If they do increase the price as it becomes more feature rich, what will original users have to pay? Paying more every year to get a few more features? Not a good business model!

(The argument that if we dont want the features we dont have to pay is flawed. Users suffer from a diminishing return to their investment, while the developers potentialy limit continued investment and rely soley on new adopters).

However, as an example, if the cost of the product at any one time is bought for X and then all future access to new features is based on a subsrciption at ½X, then an early adopter, on the original example, will have payed £48 over three years. And a new adopter could be charged, say, £36 pounds for an enhanced appliction. At any time you stop paying the subscription you still get the product at the last stage of its development, but have not had to pay for diminishing returns.

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We can’t answer that, we might lower the price or up the price, we’ll see over time. What we are not planning at the moment is to differentiate between existing users and current users. Ultimately what the price will be when your time to renew comes doesn’t matter, all that matters is that you feel that what we ask you to pay is a fair price for what we offer in terms of features. Some will without a doubt find it too high even if you get 20 features, for others it will be a few features and still a no brainer.

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